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Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.--------------------
Nov 20, 2008, 04:23:58 PM
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News: You must register and login to see all the boards and discussions.
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Author
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Topic: Headache with HS administration (Read 4346 times)
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LaneDEA  |
A real headache I have with local high school administration. At least some of the people doing these jobs.
This is something I actually intended to send to the local paper as a letter to the editor. But it was way too long and there wasn't a way to shorten it and allow the edit for the size for people reading to see the point.
So, I'm going to throw it up on here, and see what you all think of both the problem and the situation.
It has come to my attention lately some very disturbing news about the policy Haywood County schools have respecting each other from one administration to another separate school. Principal Collins has told a child's parent recently that her child would be removed from the school and 'sent to central' if she didn't behave better. The child had the penalty of ISS for her infraction which is understood and reasonable. While I understand the fact the student did something to deserve punishment, and was definitely punished for it, the fact remains that the child's parent was threatened with 'sending the child to central'. Talking to other parents, this isn't an uncommon occurrence from Mr. Collins of Pisgah High School.
I'm very concerned that the administrators of both Tuscola and Pisgah have the wrong idea that Central Haywood High School is some kind of a dumping ground for students if they are expelled. This is a very bad trend on the part of Principal Collins. While I do believe once Central Haywood High School was opened, it was a place for people who got into trouble to go in between Canton and Waynesville, that school has grown beyond that. It has made a reputation here in 2005 that stands clear. When I hear about the a Principal of Pisgah High threatening a child of being sent to Central, it aggravates me. There are people I know who teach there including a co-worker of mine named Bill Dalton. Someone who left a more lucrative life at Ingles Markets to teach children and had bigger things to do, such as take care of his kids.
None of these people feel like they're doing a job for a second rate school. Central Haywood was originally designed for a place people could go to school if they were in the middle and couldn't get a bus, which is Clyde. Everyone that works for that school is dedicated in their job, because they are teachers. I'll bet that most teachers didn't go there for a better rate of pay, but because they were teachers and were just simply wanting to enjoy their work.
Central has some fantastic teachers who were willing to move much of it as well after the September flood. These teachers have not only moved the school after the flood, but dealt with the fact of running an educational environment in a completely different place. The Central High School is running after such a disaster. Partly because the faculty that works there were people that cared about their school.
This school is a part of Haywood County now, just as much as Tuscola and Pisgah. Understand administrators that this high school deserves the same respect as the school you administrate, Understand while it may not have a ball team of any kind, it's still a place of education. It is certainly not a place to threaten problem students with. Students and teachers that frequent those halls of Central High deserve better respect. Threatening students with being sent to 'Central' if they have made a few bad decisions is bad policy.
-Lane Deaver, Clyde, NC
Opinions welcomed. (:
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 Bind all of us togather, a place for hope and free.
No storm or heavy weather will the boat you'll see.
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tinan |
Send that to the School Superintendent, all the school principals, and the State Education Association.
And the editor won't print it? Are you sure?
It's an excellent letter.
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Marshy
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DEA...........
Not being from there, I cannot comment on that specific problem. But I can tell you that all over the country, schools and prinicipals are using the scare and intimidate students and parents tactics.
They try to scare the students with a threat of something they know they will not like in order to gain control over them. Evidently the principal there thought the idea of being sent to another school might work.
I do not especially think it is the right way for operate a school, but it seems to be the trend. So many problems for them to handle, they might use it as a last resort. In many cases parents refuse to believe their son or daughter would ever do anything wrong and they become quite hostile towards authority figures. They set this example for their children to follow. In some cases, even the parents are at wit's end as to what to do with their children and so they have no answer either.
Schools and school boards have become frightened about what a student might do. Yet, they don't know how to handle the situations so they resort to threats.
Of course it isn't right to just send a student to another school because of a problem. But I think they just do not know what else to do other than make threats and hope that will force the student to listen to them and make other students also listen.
I feel so terribly sorry for teachers and principals now. They are paddling upstream with only one paddle. I don't know the answer and I am guessing no one does or the problems would be solved. Perhaps some of the parents could get together and come up with alternative plans that the school could use for dicipline. At least that could be a start............ Good luck
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JoLynn |
I agree that your letter should be sent to the editor of all the local rags. While I am sure many will see it here, more exposure to this subject can only help.
Maybe you could add a sentence to tell others about the discussion you started here and let them know they are welcome to talk openly about this issue.
Talking now leads to solutions in the near future.
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“One person with a belief is equal to a force of ninety-nine who have only interests.” ~Peter Marshall
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A Kindred Mom |
DEA...........
In many cases parents refuse to believe their son or daughter would ever do anything wrong and they become quite hostile towards authority figures. They set this example for their children to follow. In some cases, even the parents are at wit's end as to what to do with their children and so they have no answer either.
I, by far, am not blind to my child's ways. After all, no one knows her better than I. And that's where it starts - KNOW YOUR CHILD. And yes, parents are a major source of contribution when it comes to a child's behavior. Having worked with children involved with Juvenile Services and DSS, I am no where near my wits end. I am one of the fortunate few who don't feel defeated.
Now, I believe there is a better way to handle things at school. If the officials would communicate with parents more, some of the problems would likely resolve themselves. I know of several instances where my child was called down to the office...reprimands, questioning, etc. Even though I have been to the principal's office myself and requested that they call me each and every time my child is in the office, it doesn't happen. I'll pose the same question that I posed to them too...How do you expect me to teach my child better if I don't know there's an issue that needs resolving? I know my child is a different person when she's at school. Most children are. It's overwhelming at the number of parents who don't realize sweet and innocent 'Janie' acts like a thug/gangster at school - and polite little 'Johnnie' is a bully/druggie. This goes back to the lack of communication between the school and parents. As the new school year starts up, I will be in the office again preaching that I WANT TO BE CALLED everytime my child is in the office, I don't care what the reason is.
My child has been threatened to be sent to Central Haywood - as have many others. I did speak with the principal and he said he DOES use it as a scare tactic. Thing is that he threatened my child with it over such a minor infraction that it didn't hold any credence with her. I took a stand with him and told him not to ever threaten her with it, and above all else to never threaten her with a suspension if he hasn't included me in the disipline. I am the bottom line and the only link - and if I'm eliminated from the process they will be jumping the gun. I won't sit idly by. I do not expect them to let my child behave whatever way she wants, but I do expect them to communicate with me. I have more power over my child than the school system does and I can do things with her they can't. My child WILL respect authority and I can't teach her that if I don't know what's happening at school.
The next time I have to go to the school for something, I do intend to catch up with the principal and ask him what he thinks he's doing to the reputation of Central Haywood when he's threatening to send 'problem' children? He probably doesn't realize that he's indirectly degrading the reputation of Central Haywood. Doesn't that school deserve the same respect as Pisgah and Tuscola? I'm sure there are good students/teachers as well as bad - as with any school.
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tinan |
A principal who stoops to threats has no business being a principal.
Principals are SUPPOSED to be experienced and mature enough to handle the problems of the school.
This principal is as big a discipline problem in this school as any child.
He's showing INCREDIBLE disrespect and disdain for the people who live in the district of that other high school. He's an ass.
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Marshy
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hello kindred mom,
Sad, isn't it to use another school's name to try and get students to comply. You are correct that it is probably causing a problem for the other school and their reputation.
I know exactly what you mean about the schools not notifying parents when there is a problem. I've been there and got the T-shirt already. Since I have had to move several times with work, it's not just at one school or districts, but a few. By the time a parent hears about what is going on, the problem is either already solved or escalated.
My point was not to say what they are doing is right. It isn't. But just to point out that this is what schools all over are doing. It's not a justification. The problem is much bigger than just what scare tactics the school there uses. For what ever reasons, and there are many, schools somehow feel helpless to deal with problems sometimes.
When you go to schools and ask why they have resorted to this, most will answer they do not know what else to do. They tell you about the parents that just really do not care, or they think their little Johnny is an angel and doesn't deserve to be punished. They usually don't mention the parents that do care and are willing to help with the situations. I think that is because the ones that do not, outnumber the ones that will do something. Or they just seem to demand more time and attention from the school which leaves little time for others.
With all the terrible things that have happened in schools over the past few years, they are resorting to zero tolerence but without comman sense to go along with it. They do not want their school to be in the headlines from some terrible deed. So they go so overboard that it harms everyone.
They get cursed and threatened by some parents and I suppose it makes them gun shy to call a parent in. Even a parent that has shown in the past that they want to be called and want to work with the school. Is this right to do? Of course not. Is it right to tell a parent they are the one to be responsible for their child even when the parent hasn't even been notified about a problem? It is not.
The options? Who knows what will work until it is tried. And I don't believe there is only one way to solve the problems, but many to be used together. Parents need to form a group to try and find answers. Even if only it is a few. There is strength in numbers even if the number isn't large. A principal is much more likely to sit and listen to a group than one lone parent. That way they can't make you feel isolated and the only one that has complained. Another tactic that is used to keep their control, is to make a complaining parent seem to be the only one that has a problem with them. Go as a group of like minded people to offer ideas.
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tinan |
Old Grunt, Homeschooling is not an option for many. Plus, we pay a hell of a lot of taxes, we have the RIGHT to send our kids to public schools. The idiot principal is on the PARENTS payroll. He makes his money of the parents taxes. He OWES them his best work, not threats and intimidation.
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Old Grunt
Passing Through
 Offline
Posts: 7
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Tinan,
Kind of agree with you there, at least insofar as the person earning a living off of your taxes and the kids having a right to go to school.
The problem I have is that I've been on both sides of the fence, a parent with kids in school and a teacher. I find it hard to fault a person
using threats and intimidation when those are the only tools at their disposal and I've only heard one side of the story.
For example, when I was a teacher I had kids get in my face and tell me that I had no right to "diss" them in "their classroom". I didn't
raise my kids to disrespect their teachers and I didn't expect another parent to let their offspring do it to me. None the less, it happened and
rarely was anything done about it by the parents or the counselors. I've even had parents call me a liar and say their kid wasn't bad after
seeing a videotape of what happened. What I suggest is for anyone to go to school for just a day and shadow the staff. See what they
put up with and ask yourself if you'd want to put up with it. I didn't like it worth spit and that's why I'm working for Uncle Sam now.
My stance now, and until the day I croak is: if a parent won't instill discipline in their kids so they will behave at school, then keep
them at home. There is still a percentage of kids who are there to learn, and who realize that better paid jobs require an education.
Yes, even technical jobs such as mechanic, plumber, carpenter and so on. Those kids deserve the chance to get that learning
without interference from kids who have no, or very little discipline, or desire to be in school to start with. The one thing kids realized
about me was that I never made a threat. They were warned once, and then I carried through with my promise. I only wish I'd
chosen to teach at one of the private schools here where parents have to sign paddle permissions. The pay was less, but the discipline
problems were almost non-existent.
By the way, being a teacher cost me almost as much as I made by way of having to replace or repair personal property, attending
court and losing summer pay as a witness against some of those "darlings". And so you get a better picture, at the very first hint my
kids were getting into trouble, I home schooled them and they passed their finals with very good scores. They also graduated a year
ahead of their peers.
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tinan |
You're making a cardinal error... Assuming that this situation fits the ones you describe. The principal has NO right to use another school to threaten someone. If he wants to make a threat, then he should say "I'll kick your kid out", NOT degrade an entire group of kids at another school. If he can't do his job without denigrating others then he's a useless waste of taxpayers dollars.
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Marshy
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Amen old grunt.....
my sentiments exactly. If a parent wants to raise a brat, that is fine with me. Just keep them away from the general population and deal with it themselves.......
But there are things that schools can do from the beginning of a student's kindergarten attendance and might help down the road when they are older.
First, begin teaching some ethics. ie, lying will get you in trouble as well as disrespect for any student or teacher. Call the parent the very first time it happens and try to involve them in what should be done. Let parents and children both realize from the beginning that rules must be followed. We can't just let them assume that what they consider the small things will be just overlooked. Many schools and teachers tend to just let things slide in the beginning.
Second, an established dress code by the district with parent input. It should be followed from kindergarten thru high school. Each school keep a few pieces of clothing on hand to give to a student to wear if they come improperly dressed. No just letting it pass with a warning or a chance to go home to change. Many like the idea of having to go home.
Third, for infrations of rules have the students do some community service. That would serve to teach them how fortunant they might be and would also help out the community. Even younger children are capable of doing something. It then becomes more of a learning expereince than just a punishment which is what a punishment to a child should be.
Fouth, never ever allow a student nor teacher to belittle, ridicule or to bully another person without doing something about it right then. And praise, praise, praise for something well done. It takes no more time and effort to tell a child "good job" than it does to tell him/her what they did wrong while ignoring something good. I can guarantee that for some children, it will be their first encounter with praise. Their first time to enjoy a feeling of accomplishment.
I know these things will not solve all the problems, but they are steps that might help.
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tinan |
This PRINCIPAL belittled an entire school. How can you say "He was ok to do that" ??
You want YOUR kid's school used as a threat? How do you think that makes the good kids at that school feel?
How do you know this was a "brat"? You are ASSuming a lot. The parent that started this was not concerned about discipline, didn't say a WORD about the kid being innocent or falsely accused. You are MISSING the whole point of the complaint... The fact that the idiot principal is degrading an ENTIRE group of children with his asinine threats.
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Marshy
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Hey Tinan,
I did not call anyone's child a brat. Especially not DEA's child because I have no idea if they are or aren't. It would be so foolish of me to make a statement like that. I spoke of brats in general. There are many in case you haven't noticed. And they need to be kept home with their parents and let the parents cope with the problems since they are usually the ones that think it is so adorable.
Not only that, I never said that it was okay to just send a student to another school. As a matter of fact, I said I did not agree with it. But I did point out that this goes on all the time and all over. That is not saying it is okay to do. It is stating what is a fact.
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LaneDEA |
It's been a couple of days since I had a chance to get back. So I'll address this one at a time.
Tinan : Send that to the School Superintendent, all the school principals, and the State Education Association.
And the editor won't print it? Are you sure?
It's an excellent letter.
I didn't say they wouldn't print it. Actually I think it's too long for a letter to the editor. And there isn't any real way to shorten it and still get the point across.
marshy : I feel so terribly sorry for teachers and principals now. They are paddling upstream with only one paddle. I don't know the answer and I am guessing no one does or the problems would be solved. Perhaps some of the parents could get together and come up with alternative plans that the school could use for dicipline. At least that could be a start............
It maybe a start, but it may not be enough of one. I'm not exactly sure how many parents wish to be so involved with each other. Plus, I'm kind of an old school kinda guy - I think much of the discipline should be taught at home so children know how to act in school. Don't get me wrong, kids will be kids. And many times they will make mistakes. Mistakes can be dealt with better though than a threat to send them to a different school, because that's just silly to begin with.
Tinan : A principal who stoops to threats has no business being a principal.
Principals are SUPPOSED to be experienced and mature enough to handle the problems of the school.
This principal is as big a discipline problem in this school as any child.
He's showing INCREDIBLE disrespect and disdain for the people who live in the district of that other high school. He's an ass.
Exactly! It's not simply the problem of discipline of the child. Most of my argument has to do with the fact there is another high school is implicated. Quite disrespectively in my opinion, and in a very unfair way.
Old Grunt : If you're having problems with school administration, then withdraw the child and home school them.
As a former teacher I've recommended that to many parents.
Uhh, how about hell no my friend. Main reason being is that I pay taxes to support the school system, and expect them to deliver an education to the best of their ability. Believe me, if I had the financial opportunity to home school my child, I would do so still very reluctantly. I feel it's very important for growing children to grow socially with others their age. I want my child to experience all different kinds of people in a social environment, and come out of it with what he has learned. School isn't just about education of skills and knowledge - It's the experience. It's not a problem with the students or the actual faculty I'm talking about, but some very bad decisions of one or two administrators.
I also believe that after the parents get an all day dose of their kids rather than expect schools to babysit instead of educate, they will realize just what they're asking the schools to handle.
Well, I'll be easy on you and just say, that's the biggest load of crap I've heard in a long time from someone local. It's not babysitting my man. It's teaching. Sometimes teaching means babysitting. Sometimes managing a class includes some babysitting. In my line of work, most of it is babysitting adults. It's still the end result you must pay attention to. I understand why you're not a teacher anymore actually based on the posts you've made in this thread. It just isn't in your blood it seems.
I think it'll also be difficult for you to find me one good parent that wouldn't prefer to have their child with them all day 'babysitting'. It's just not the way it is or can be. We work, and we pay taxes for out children's education.
I'm also not one that's saying it's all bad. The education system in North Carolina has worked overall good for many years. It's got problems, but none that can't be solved. The system isn't what my argument is about. It's people in authority that do very disrespectable and stupid things. (:
-------
After reading your next post to Tinan I do understand a bit more. I understand it's a thankless job in the majority of cases. I understand it's work with much less pay than it deserves. I understand it was probably much more of a headache than it felt worth effort. I understand that there are discipline problems in school, and if it were up to me the paddling would come back to a certain age. (I say that because I believe corporal punishment is worthy until a certain age, then ISS and it's components seems to work better) There are always going to be students that are complete crap, and never will be anything at all. I also agree that it's mostly because their parents are crap too.
Unfortunately there isn't anything you or me can do about that. There is nothing an administrator of a high school can do about it either. I see bad kids all the time at work. I'm very absolute as well - If you do that again, your fired.
What your missing here in this discussion is the fact the people I'm talking about aren't bad kids. I know them, they're not bad. Of course, they are still kids, and make stupid childish decisions. But they're not crap, nor are their parents.
Tinan : This PRINCIPAL belittled an entire school. How can you say "He was ok to do that" ?? You want YOUR kid's school used as a threat? How do you think that makes the good kids at that school feel? How do you know this was a "brat"? You are ASSuming a lot. The parent that started this was not concerned about discipline, didn't say a WORD about the kid being innocent or falsely accused. You are MISSING the whole point of the complaint... The fact that the idiot principal is degrading an ENTIRE group of children with his asinine threats.
Thank you again for getting this subject back on topic.
This isn't so much about discipline of children in the local school system. Let's not loose sight of the topic. It's about a local high school administrator using Central High School as a threat to send students to. As if it's supposed to be where they send all the bad students. I don't care if the principal is out of options. He needs to find something else (even OSS) before he suggests that high school as if it were second rate jail.
Old Grunt : Did he belittle a whole school or is that simply your point of view? Maybe he was confessing that since he could not control the individual he would send them to a better place to learn.
That wasn't the impression I had. He wasn't concerned about the ability to learn as much as threatening the fact 'if they got in trouble again'. He said it the same way to both students. Both had minor infractions (probably something you couldn't get ISS for). Both don't get in trouble very much. I should also mention they aren't my children.
what tools does he have to work with? What regs does he have to follow? Do you know? Are you willing to find out?
Considering the fact this is one of the only middle schools in the county, I'm sure he has resources. He also has the police department to work with him, a D.A.R.E. advisor. Regulations are no different than any other school system in this county.
Like I said before, find out what he has to deal with before you label him an idiot.
Oh, I'd love for Mr. Collins to come here and defend himself. I'm not the one that called him an idiot, but my satisfaction of his administrative skills leaves a lot to be desired.
Actually I think you should try and contact him Old Grunt, let him know he needs to defend himself. Explain the situation on this bulletin board, and ask him to come in and reply, or defend himself nevertheless. The number for Pisgah High School is 646-3440. (: I'd love to see him come here. Be sure you tell him how to get to WaynesvilleLive and which topic he's looking for.
If his only choice's are a threat to remove the kid to another venue or expel them, then he chose the lesser of two evils and actually gave the child a break.
I don't agree. The other threatened venue isn't a second chance. He should have expell any child according to policy for infractions.
If the "blackmail" works and the child doesn't misbehave again so be it
Do yourself a favor. Get the disciplinary stats from all of the schools concerned. The school board should have them. Whichever one has the highest percentage of problems should be used as the basis for a threat of that sort. To a High Schooler, the threat of being separated from ones friends and peers is more real (and frightening) than most anything else you could use because they have to start over again.
No, it should not. Making the threat made the disservice to that school. Your still missing the point. It doesn't matter whether the school is more disciplinary than the other two main schools. It's the fact it IS NOT A SECOND RATE SCHOOL. It isn't second to Tuscola or Pisgah. It's EVEN.
I do agree that cutting a problem student off from their peers is about the scariest thing they can imagine. I think the same problem they would have is being expelled. But never when I've talked to the two students have I heard that as another option. Problem is, these two students didn't do anything to deserve expulsion. So 'sending them to central' was a ploy. May have been a good ploy, but it's still not right. I can deal with firm decisions on punishment of the administration. Threatening 'sending them to central' isn't a good ploy at all. And I still stand by the belief that it's not fair to the students there nor the faculty.
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Bind all of us togather, a place for hope and free.
No storm or heavy weather will the boat you'll see.
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JoLynn |
DEA,
Just wanted to let you know that we have posted this issue on our front page news with a link leading to your letter.
Thank you for bringing this unjust behavior to the attention of the community. Your letter is going to make a difference in the lives of many.
How it must feel to the students of Central to think their school is for misfits and unwanteds.
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“One person with a belief is equal to a force of ninety-nine who have only interests.” ~Peter Marshall
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LaneDEA |
Well thank you actually. I'm happy this discussion can be seen on a more broad level. (:
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Bind all of us togather, a place for hope and free.
No storm or heavy weather will the boat you'll see.
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Emma Mills
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I completey agree with Lane Deaver of Clyde, and as a parent who wished to transfer my student to Central Haywood High due to the incredible opportunities such as teaching students high technological programs as well as the necessary subjects. I wish to transfer my son because of the wonderful opportunities that school has to offer. I have it from one of the highest member of the Haywood County School System that this is the ideal and perfect school for my son and his needs.
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